Another newbie with questions

West Virginia Mineral Rights Tyler County, WV
1

I know from experience that it's not always easy helping out people who are new to something so complicated, I'm grateful to anyone who might take the time to give me some info. I have just a few questions.

Short background: Out of nowhere came a phone call from a LandMan and two contracts from two separate counties, one is Tyler. There was talk of "oil in the family" a long time ago. We have issues with an executor of my Mother's will, (a family member) that person may or may not be stealing, there may be a hidden trust (from the last 20 years), there may be several live trusts that I'm not benefiting from (some date back to the 1930's). And now, suddenly, oil and gas leases from nowhere. Reps from Antero fumbling with paper work when I ask pointed questions about trusts, and silence when I ask where they are getting their info from. It's all very confusing. It's been a strange few weeks.

1) I'm planning to call to negotiate this week. I'd like to get the ball rolling. How is that usually done? Do I call the person who signed the contract? Will Antero work with me through email? I like a paper trail. I've read and understand how the negotiating works, I'm not going to go over board with what I ask for and I'm going to be prepared.

2) When they run title, is the information they get from the research and title search given to the Lessor? If they are looking at a trust instrument will they let me see it? I want to understand where this is all coming from.

3) At the top of both contracts there is what appears to be a grid number. Where is this grid? Is it available online for me to see where the two properties are located?

I realize this is a process, and I won't get the answers that I'm looking for immediately. I don't mind waiting, I just want to understand all of this. Wouldn't you?

God bless and have a wonderful day,

Ellen Kelley

2

Ellen,

I cannot state strongly enough, the need to speak with an attorney. Some of the things landmen are saying, especially coming out of Tyler County is amazingly inaccurate and they will swoop in like a buzzard on a "newbie".

Personally, I recommend Windom Law Offices in Harrisville, they have been wonderful and easy to work with, especially appreciated, in that I live out of state.

I suspect the grid numbers are Map & Parcel, do you know what district the properties are in? I am willing to share downloaded maps that list the parcels if you wish.

Take two aspirin and hold on for a rollercoaster ride.

Wilson

3

Thank you Wilson,

I have looked into hiring a lawyer, but I'm generally a distrustful person by nature. I have had some not so great experiences with them as well. I did call one lawyer, but his retainer was more than the bonus of both contracts together. I read through several websites, and this forum. I feel like I have a pretty good grasp of what is expected in negotiations, but I'll give Windom Law a call.

Where do you get the downloads? My husband and I have looked everywhere but can't figure out if they're available. If you want to look them up for me, or share a downloadable map, I'd be so grateful. I'm very curious if the two are near each other.

I'm actually thinking about buying stock in the parent company that makes Advil, it's a crazy rollercoaster and I'm just on the first half of the first incline!

Thanks,

Ellen

4

Ellen, Mr. Johnson probably has a subscription to one of the sites where the tax map information is. You can call the Tyler County Assessor’s office and order them also. Some of the counties have been making digital maps with a few updates so might be good to get the official ones as well. When I have time this evening I can send a link for the Tyler County records website where the tax records going back a few years are, and deed, leases, wills etc are for recent years and a way to download software to view the older ones.I think there is a discussion somewhere in the Tyler group about it; you could look around. Well worth figuring out how to access and use. The tax maps would not be there. Keep reading, and ask more if you want, and there are people here, including Mr. Johnson, who are very helpful. I agree with him about the desirability of involving an attorney, and Mr. Windom helped my aunt several years ago. He has a good reputation, and is in the county just south of Tyler so he would know the area.

5

Ellen,

Here is the link Tyler County website They say it works best using Internet Explorer as a browser.

You can select Tax or Document. If you have any idea about who might have been paying the property taxes on the mineral rights, you can search that part of the site. The Document inquiry has the more recent deeds, leases, etc. If someone filed trust documents with the county, there might be something there.

To get the older documents, look for a button saying "right click" on the top row to the right. Right click on that and it should make available a download to your desktop of the software to view the old records. Rather complicated so if you can find the discussion on this, it might help. Otherwise ask. You can "friend" me if you want to ask questions privately or you can ask here. I have used this site a fair amount finding some things about family, and helping friends. The land records (tax information, by district) is in there, going back to the 1880s, through 1985. I think the newer records, on the Tax Inquiry tab, start 2003 so there is a gap, but this is a big help. Might be able to find some things there.

Anyway that should be of some help.

1.About contacting Antero, I agree about a paper trail, so if you have an email contact, start there.

2. They seem to consider their title information to be their property and are reluctant to share it. Not just Antero but as far as I know, all the companies. You might get lucky and get somebody to tell you something but that's why I like to be able to look at the documents myself, and Tyler has more than most counties online.

If you want to order a deed or something, I think you might be able to do it somehow online, but I don't see anything about log in. Ritchie County has a way to create an account, then download and print documents but the last time I asked Tyler they were still working on it and meanwhile are glad to sell copies at about $1 a page ($1.50 for the first two pages, then $1 a page after that, is the way it has been). I think the phone number for them is 1-304-758-2102.

3. As we already said, the grid number might be a tax map and parcel number. They usually include that information in the lease document. You can search Antero and some recent dates, and find many leases, or at least memoranda of them, and see if you see something like you are referring to.

Please feel free to ask questions about anything I have written. Sometimes I leave out a step because I have done things so often.

If you might need Ritchie documents, look for the Ritchie county group and find a discussion I put there about the records (website www.ritchiecountywv.com). It was really exciting when they finally got this system (similar to Tyler). They had used a different system before, where you had to pay even to view a document. You could see the index entry but not much else. Now viewing is free, and downloading is easy.

Some of the other counties have some or all of the documents online also, and some do not.

Nancy

6

Thanks, Nancy!

Wow, great info I'm so grateful. I have been on the Tyler County Website, but I have a Mac computer and it just doesn't work right. I'll try it on a Windows computer and see if it makes a difference. Thanks for that!

More questions: Is there a way to run title on oil and gas leases? Who would I go to? Can I hire my own landman? I read somewhere that some will charge you 1% of your royalty (depending on whether the land ever produces). I'm so unsure how to proceed, as all I have are the grid numbers. I looked at several Antero annual reports, and various websites, but saw no actual grids.

I feel like I'm learning so much from this forum, you all are so nice to help me out. Thank you!

Ellen

7

Ellen,

You are able to hire a landman, assuming you can find one that is not already working. However, that cost will be ridiculously expensive and I would suggest speaking with an attorney first.

I left you a message in your Inbox on this site, contact me if you would like some additional assistance.

WJ

8

Hi Ellen, my sister who is an attorney in another state taught me the basics of title searching and let me check out our interests. I have been trying to help people check for themselves when possible, and I have seen several instances where the landman made mistakes, so better to do your own searching when possible. For an official title opinion, a WV lawyer is necessary. To get started, look for names you know in the deeds database. If you know which ancestor owned things to begin with, search that name in the old records. The next step is to match location with names. It can get complicated. The goal is to go back to the original land grant from Virginia (all of West Virginia was once part of Virginia) but at least back to 1865 when I believe the first oil was discovered and some people sold their oil and gas interests. There was also sale of coal interests sometimes. My county didn’t have coal, they say, so it wasn’t important in my own research. That was not at all detailed but might give you ideas once you are able to get to the pc and find the Tyler website.

9

Nancy,

Don't forget, some of the production companies insist on going even further back, being able to prove you are a direct descendant of Adam & Eve. :) (Production company name, intentionally withheld by me.)

WJ

10

Good one! I am NOT surprised!

11

Thanks to you both!

I have done so much research, and have read everything I can possibly read on this forum, that I now feel like I understand way more than I did last weekend. My husband has figured out the map/parcels and we have found that the two parcels have never been drilled on, at least the farmland looks like, well... farmland. Both have pads very close to them, owned by Antero. That tells me there is oil in the area, and they are ready to have more drilling. Google Earth is a Godsend when it comes to spying on what is going on in the immediate area.

As it turns out, the entire parcel is 1/2 owned by us and our distant cousins, we have been calling, emailing and Facebooking; and I have been given what they asked for in their contracts (they were approached first, as our side of the family did not have much info out there for Antero to find, plus we're suspicious people). So I have what my cousins had o.k.'ed by Antero, the clauses they had removed, etc. At least for the property in Tyler. The other half of the parcel are folks we do not know.

I've also scoured the two counties' inquiry pages, Ritchie needs to broaden what they have, yeesh! But I can say that the Tyler property is pretty clear. I'm curious why there is no deed, but I have a call in to our landman and I get to haggle with him on why we can't see the deed, can't wait.

I have more questions: Can I ask in my negotiations for the title run? Can I ask for any and all trusts, wills, probate, or anything that I'm unable to get my hands on as public record? I have most of the wills, and some of the probate, but I want the trust info if it's in Antero's hands.

Last thing. The numbers on one of the contracts is wrong. Looking at the total acreage as it started out in my Great Uncle's estate, and following it down to me and my siblings; I'm finding that it's wrong by half. Why is that? I'm waiting for a call from the Landman, and I'm planning to ask him, but is that a tactic? Are they withholding half of the land for some dastardly reason? See, I told you we are suspicious people!

Again, thanks so much. I'm so grateful to everything you've given me.

Take care,

Ellen

12

Ellen,

You can ask for almost anything in your negotiations, however the title reports are extremely guarded and there is little chance AR will be willing to share. I was sent a 132 page title report by accident and AR begged me to return it to them, even made veiled threats of a lawsuit. Frequently this is type of report is considered "Confidential Work Product" and anything you might receive, would be extremely redacted.

Please review the following document, if you think you have learned something now, you will feel as though you have a Masters Degree upon studying this document a few times. https://assets.recenter.tamu.edu/documents/articles/229.pdf Although this document was prepared for Texas, a LOT of what is written, applies to WV, but not all.

Tyler County is extremely profitable in 'Wet Gas' and I guarantee there are NO provisions in any proposed leases, covering wet gas. It behooves you to make every effort to include a royalty on the Wet Gases, in that the price is significantly higher than "...at the wellhead" which is most likely as any lease will be written. I recommend you limit the depth allowed to be drilled, most leases give away the right to drill to the core of the earth for the same consideration as for only the Marcellous layer.

Keep in mind, you have all the power and you should not allow anyone to bully you. Most likely, whoever the Landman is, they are a contract worker and not employed by AR. The promises and threats are simply amazing and the tactics used are horrendous, in my opinion, Landmen have given Used Car Salesmen, a good name in comparison. Keep in mind, what you sign today, may be in effect for many generations to come. I recently purchased a parcel that has a producing well, from the 1800's, Lease Book 3, Page 14. What was originally signed was primarily for Oil and the Natural Gas was considered waste gases, that were burnt off at the well site.

Lastly, do not rush. I have been negotiating a Tyler County lease for more than two years with a different outfit than AR, have dealt with countless Landmen and have been called every name in the book. I reviewed the original proposed lease and the latest last week and the results have been extremely worth my time, patience and a few additional gray hairs. Initially they offered 250.00 per net mineral acre to the earth core and their latest offer is 10,000.00 / NMA, 17% Net on all Hydrocarbons, including Wet Gas. Most outfits are counting on the initial greed to make a buck in the long run. I call it, "Distracting you with a handful of cash as they reach behind you to steal your wallet."

If you are working with a Landman representing Antero Resources, I suggest you contact their Ellenboro or Bridgeport, WV offices directly and attempt to deal directly with the company. What strides you make with "John Smith" today, may be for naught next month, when "Jane Smith" takes over the negotiations, because John was fired, for failing to meet his monthly quota of signed leases.

Best wishes, do not hesitate to contact me directly if I can assist with anything that you are having a challenge with.

Cheers,
WJ

13

Ellen wrote: "Last thing. The numbers on one of the contracts is wrong. Looking at the total acreage as it out in my Great Uncle's estate, and following it down to me and my siblings; I'm finding that it's wrong by half. Why is that? I'm waiting for a call from the Landman, and I'm planning to ask him, but is that a tactic? Are they withholding half of the land for some dastardly reason? See, I told you we are suspicious people!"

Ellen, are you saying that the acreage listed on the lease is half as much as what you believe it to be from your other information? It might be because, as you said, your part of the family only owns half interest.

And about not being able to see a deed, can you explain that a little better? There might be something simple involved.

And the document that Wilson posted the link to, that is an update of something I have found very useful. I look forward to reading it, seeing what the changes are. Thanks Wilson Johnson!

14

Nancy,

You are welcome for the link, it is very informative, a few minor details can make a major difference.

Ellen, I hope the information is helpful and reduces your stress in some fashion. Never forget, YOU hold the upper hand, the production company is coming to YOU to lease, your interests.

Cheers,
WJ

15

Nancy,

Thanks for responding, I'm getting frustrated, but coming here always makes me feel better. Sorry if this is long...

I'm assuming that the ancestor who originally owned this property owned the whole thing. That's just how he did things, big. Still haven't heard back from the Landman, which is totally unprofessional. This is the second time I've called someone at Antero and they haven't returned my call. But when/if he does I want to find out if my Great Uncle did own all of this, because if he did, then my math is correct. That brings me to the deed...

I can't find anything with this ancestor's name on it, except payments that were made by a distant cousin for the last 13 years. From what I'm getting from family, we own the surface, too; and this cousin was paying the taxes so that it wouldn't get sold out from under us. The first Landman who called us gave my sister some book/page numbers, but when we called Tyler Co. the lady said they (the pages) didn't exist in the deed book. There is an instrument number in my sister's contract, but not mine, for the deed. But when I look at that on the inquiry page there are 3 separate deeds; and names, that I don't recognize, and dates that are wrong. I have looked up every name in our family, even common misspellings; nothing. I even went so far as to look through each book, on the inquiry page, trying to find a name I recognize. This property was purchased (I'm guessing) in the 1900's-1930's; so I've focused there. I'm actually thinking about going up to WV to do research, but it's kind of hard with 3 kids and a life (I'm in Florida).

On top of all of this I'm reading and preparing to negotiate. I spent 3 hours last night reading what Wilson Johnson sent me, and then further research on the Pugh Clause. I'm not all that worried about the contracts, negotiating, etc. It's the mystery of all of this that keeps me up at night, and the fact that Antero seems to only hire unprofessional masters at misdirection and manipulation. One guy told my sister that they had no info on my Dad, yet that day I called our lawyer in my hometown and he told me that "some guy" from "some company" called the County Clerk asking for the will and probate papers for my Dad, and the county clerk called our lawyer. He had written down the name, because it was so unusual for someone to call out of the blue like that, it was the same Landman that my sister talked to! He also told her that we owned the surface, then the next conversation he denied it. We have no deed, we have no trust instrument, we have nothing, and they are sitting there with God knows what and won't share! These are strangers who know more than we do about our family! It's driving me crazy!

Ellen

16

Thanks so much!

I'm following everything you tell me and reading other things, as well. I have written down Wet Gas and my husband is planning to research and make sense of that. It's not mentioned in either contract.

I'm actually thinking of calling the Ellenboro or Bridgeport offices, because our Landman doesn't return calls. So thanks for the suggestion.

Thanks!

Ellen

17

Ellen,

Contact me directly via the private email on this site and I will share a name of someone directly with Antero, which might assist you. On the one condition, you not give my name to that person.

WJ

18

Hi Ellen,

Have you been able to get the Tyler county document inquiry to work on your computer? It sounds like you have been able to look at the tax records.

I'd be glad to help you work through the process if you want.

i just looked, and there is not the ability to search by map and parcel number. Some other counties, including Ritchie, have that. It would help identify the current surface owner, or at least the one listed as the owner and the one being sent tax bills. This would help in tracing back the title, in the document inquiry section.

There is a button at the top of the page of the Tax inquiry "Install Web Tax" . I don't need to do this for Tyler, but I expect it might allow more searching. It appears to work like the process to install the software for the old deeds etc for Tyler.

Let me know if you want some coaching, either privately via the Friend message or here, so others can see the process. Leave out names if you want, but I can check and see what is there, to see if you are not finding something that is available, or if there is really not anything there.

It is also possible that the deed was filed in a different county. I found a deed in Tyler county, from the 1897 era, that was for mineral interest in Ritchie and should have been filed there but was not. So things can happen irregularly!

19

Hi everybody, I just wanted to give you all an up-date of what is happening with my negotiations with Antero. I sent Deb Tanner the changes I wanted in the contract the middle of October. I have had no response from her as of today. When my sister called Deb Tanner after receiving her contract, my sister lives out of state, she was told by DT if she didn't sign it she would get nothing because she had enough heirs already to proceed with drilling whether she signed the contract or not. So my sister agreed to the contract. I am going to call DT later today. I will let you know what her response is. Tyler Co. records web site has been down & I haven't been able to check the latest contracts. Does anyone know what the problem is?

Thanks, Joyce

20

Some system maintenance I think, Tyler and Wetzel were working normally yesterday and both are not accessible today. Ritchie, which has the same system, is normal today. They might have their own server, they have their own website. Re what your sister was told, I am curious what you hear. That does not sound right to me.